Interview With Seth Godin: How to Succeed With Your Biggest Goals
What’s the secret behind succeeding with your biggest goals? First, let’s start by defining a goal. Seth Godin defines real goals as “actionable, measurable behaviors that lead to outcomes. They are not outcomes.” So before you can begin to reach your goals, you must start to live the process fully.
In my interview with Seth Godin, we chat about the truth behind goal achievement, and the steps you can take to shift your mindset around goal setting and start establishing habits that will help take you on the journey from who you are today to the person you want to be.
Part of the work is doing the work, part of the work is learning to do the work better, and part of the work is being generous enough in your community to find possibility of people who can help you make your work even better.
– Seth Godin
Here’s What We Talked About:
How real goals are actionable, measurable behaviours that lead to outcomes. They are not outcomes.
How to focus on the process, rather than the goal, in order to establish habits that stick.
What Seth learned from his mentor Zig Ziglar: give-up and go-up goals.
How Seth achieved his goal of becoming the #1 ranked speaker at Internet World
How streaks help you turn action into a fully-fledged habit
There Are Many Reasons I Admire Seth but Particularly...
...how he’s built a loyal tribe of people who are connected to him, his big ideas, and most of all, to each other. It’s taken him 3 decades, 4 companies, 5 TED talks, 23 books and a ton of commitment. Because that’s what it takes.
...how we writes simply, clearly and above all, consistently. 7100 daily blogs later, seths.blog is a masterpiece.
...how he role models a type of marketing that is totally free from gimmicks, hacks and impersonal tactics, and instead full of generosity, empathy and community. And his own success is testament to the fact it works.
But what I like about him most of all is how dangerous he is.
Seth is calm and kind and soft spoken, but don't be fooled: he’s a real rebel. He freely challenges authority, speaks truth to power, and has been quietly raising an army of disobedient, creative innovators to break down the post-industrialist complex that keeps humans as cogs in a machine.
He wields the most dangerous kind of power of all – the power to influence – and he does it with such grace. He doesn’t attack, he doesn’t do takedowns. He’s beloved. And you can get into all sorts of rooms and onto all sorts of tables with very dangerous ideas when you’re beloved.
That’s his genius.
Read the Full Transcript:
Imogen Roy: Something that comes up a lot is: "I have goals, but I never actually have the time to make them happen." Right?
Seth Godin: Right.
Imogen Roy: So, three things I'd like to get across for them. One is: identity fuels action. We can say, "I will try". "I would like to". "I will do this when I have time" OR, you can say: "I am".
Seth Godin: Exactly.
Imogen Roy: I am a prolific creator. I am a vegetarian. I am a healthy eater. I am a nonsmoker. And that changes everything, right? Because then you *are* that person and you can--
Seth Godin: Really, it's all about the process, yes.
Imogen Roy: Yeah, so I'm thinking, maybe if you agree, the call to action could be writing a statement: "I am *blank*" or "I am the person who *blank*", because *belief*.
Seth Godin: Okay I like that.
Imogen Roy: Like - I am the person who ships contents every other day because I know that if I do so, I will become a better writer. I will find my voice. I will meet my people et cetera. Versus someone who might otherwise say, "This year I'd like to try and publish more content online."
Seth Godin: Exactly, yeah and I think it might lead to your second point, which is, so before I talk about the card or you talk about the card, I think real goals are actionable, measurable behaviors that lead to outcomes. They are not outcomes.
Imogen Roy: Yeah yeah and actually, when we set the smart goal and we get kind of fixated on these specific precise things, but we don't have a process in place to actually get there, we shut ourselves down to the magic: the journey between where you are today and achieving a goal, you become a completely different person. So, if you're not living that process fully, if you're not falling in love with that process, you're not going to -- Okay, I always say to people, if you're not enjoying the process, what makes you think you're going to enjoy the destination?
Seth Godin: Well if we define the goal as a series of actions, not a miracle to come to me all the time. So, if your goal is to have five million dollars, you might have to do a lot of things you don't like doing for a long time, but having five million dollars means you don't have to do those things anymore. I'm not as interested in those goals at all.
Imogen Roy: Yes, because also we might actually get the five million dollars and realize what we wanted was security, which we could have gotten another way, yes.
Seth Godin: Exactly.
Imogen Roy: Okay, so maybe what we should first do is define for people what you and I mean by a goal. Like the goal is the process, not the result.
Seth Godin: Well so why even bother with the goal? I think we bother with a goal because in moments when the wind is not at our back, it's easy to reset, it's easy to give up. It's easy to get distracted, and so a goal serves at some level as a compass point, but it also serves as a reminder of why you started to do this difficult work to begin with. So, at some level there is an outcome associated with it, but mostly it is about the process. So, when I think about how I became a public speaker, I had always wanted to be a public speaker but the difference between being a really good public speaker or not is a cycle of innovation and measurement. And there used to be this show called Internet World and 600 people would give a speech there, and they were really obsessive about audience feedback and all 600 speakers were ranked. And after my first talk I think I was like 48 or 70 or something, and I decided my goal was to be the top-ranked speaker at Internet World. Now once you decide that, that doesn't help you decide what to do tomorrow. What went with the goal is: I will become the person who gives a different talk every time, and I will become the person who explores the edges of what might or might not work when I become the speaker I wish to become. That started a flywheel that continues to this day, and a year and a half later I got the results from the third Internet World, where I spoke and I was the number one speaker. So, my goal was done but I didn't stop because my process was continuing.
Imogen Roy: Yeah and actually when we focus first on the kind of person we want to be, rather than the result, and we think: okay, that version of me, who is already the number one speaker, or who already has five book deals or whatever, what are they *doing* every day? What are they doing that I'm not doing now? Then you start to take action on those habits, like - oh they actually call people and ask to speak, or they you know go and introduce themselves or whatever, and then slowly over time, you build the person who then one day is the number one speaker. Or one day is talking to Seth Godin on the phone!
Seth Godin: Right, you're not just talking. You're teaming up these great ideas. I think the other part of it is the notion of starting where you are, because it is very tempting to say, I will be able to start working on this goal after a miracle happens or after something else. Well, you want to pick processes and goals that you can, like as a vegetarian, no one accidentally ate a piece of meat in their whole life. So, if you want to be a vegetarian, be a vegetarian and now you start the process. If you want to be a writer, well then you say everyday I'm going to write for an hour, now you're a writer. So, now the goal is not to write for an hour. The goal is to a year from now have a 1000 pages in a pile. The way you get to a 1000 pages in a pile is starting where you are, which is not with a thousand pages, but you could have one.
Imogen Roy: Yeah and it's a constant process of then checking in and thinking: okay when does this start to feel too easy it becomes almost unconscious? Then you know it's time to level up.
Seth Godin: Yeah.
Imogen Roy: Okay it's easy for me to now write 3000 words a week. It's easy to organize my ideas. I have millions of ideas. I'm a writer, what's next? Maybe I start writing a book.
Seth Godin: Exactly.
Imogen Roy: Maybe I pitch a book proposal, maybe...you know. I think it's also about making sure you will check in with the process constantly, and evaluating: "where am I, am I actually stretching too far right now? Do I need to take a step back or am I rolling and I need to challenge myself more?" What's the next thing, what's the next Domino I need to push over?
Seth Godin: Exactly, so I learned a whole bunch about goal-setting from my friend and teacher Zig Ziglar. And I published one of his books on goal-setting. And two of the questions he asks about each goal are, one: What do I need to know? What do I need to learn to be better at this? And two: Who in the outside world can help me? Who in the outside world do I need to approve or to cheer me on, because if you can come up with those two things, you realize that part of the work is doing the work, part of the work is learning to do the work better, and part of the work is being generous enough in your community to find possibility of people who can help you make your work even better?
Imogen Roy: Absolutely.
Seth Godin: Those were big breakthroughs for me.
Imogen Roy: Yeah because I think a lot of people can't see the how between where they are now and the big vision, because you don't know what you don't know. So, they sit where they are today and go, that's not for me because I don't even know how get there. It just seems so far away. What they don't know, is that when you start to meet new people, or you ask people or you make new relationships, people say: "I can help you with that. "Oh yeah I've done that before. "It's no problem. "I'll show you exactly what to do. "Oh yeah I can make that connection for you" and suddenly The How takes care of itself. But if you've just been on the path doing the work and looking up enough ,as you say, to see the people around you and see the opportunities? That's it! A lot of us just totally isolate ourselves don't we? We just take the whole weight of the world on our shoulders. You know, it's that sort of myth of the solopreneur: "I pull myself up by my bootstraps. "I don't need anyone to help me. "I can do everything alone. "Elon Musk has done it.
Seth Godin: Hardly! But why do you think people do that?
Imogen Roy: I think they're afraid to be vulnerable. People don't ask for help. They think it's a sign of weakness and in fact, there's nothing more rewarding than someone saying" "you're really good at this. Can you help me?" People love it. They love to help. They love to help people who are already helping themselves. That's what I've learned too.
Seth Godin: Also it's about responsibility, in that if you say to someone: I need to learn this. And then you learn it and don't do anything with it, It's different than if you were quietly failing because now you've extended yourself and now it gets more serious, just saying it out loud. So, Zig also talked about give up and go up goals. And he and I disagree about this a little bit because times have changed. A give up goal is: I'm going to become the kind of person who doesn't smoke. You tell everyone your give up goals because the more people who know your give up goals, the more likely it is you'll get the support you need, because you will be ashamed to smoke because you've just told everybody. Your go up goals are ones about achievement and, you know, in a tall poppy culture, a lot of people are afraid to talk about go up goals, because it feels arrogant. "Who are you to say that you're going to be a top speaker or whatever it is?" And I don't think you should tell everyone your go up goals, but I think it's really important you tell *some* people because you need that level of accountability.
Imogen Roy: Yeah, yeah! Julia Cameron talks about this really beautifully. She says in life you need to have at least three believing mirrors. These are the people who see only the best in you. They see your potential and they will never be threatened by you going up.
Seth Godin: I'll write this down, it's good idea. All right, what else?
Imogen Roy: What else? Don't make new year's resolutions. Make habits, make plans. And I really want people to fall in love with the process to the person that they're becoming. I'm really all about pleasure. So, I always coach my clients to understand their positive motivators. So, I ask: what makes life fun for you? What makes stuff fun? What makes it exciting? and I say: think of this process as if going on a really, really long road trip. You know it's going to be tough and boring and challenging. At times you are going to run into traffic. There might be some danger. There'll be roads you never been down before, but how'd you prepare for a long road trip? You bring your friends. You make a good playlist. You pack snacks. You take breaks. You celebrate the stops. You get out and take pictures of funny things along the route. The long process of getting towards a goal - it's just like that, and you just have to pace yourself and make it fun.
Seth Godin: Brilliant, I also want to highlight the idea of streaks. I think that streaks are an excellent way to turn a process into a full-fledged habit.
Seth Godin: So, a trivial example is if you announced that you want to be able to run a marathon, you now want to get into shape. A streak is: you don't have to run any further than the mailbox in front of your house but every day, even if you have the flu, even if you're upset, you put on your shoes and go to the mailbox. After you get to the mailbox, then you can decide you're not going for a run today but first you got to make it to the mailbox, and that idea of streaks is critical because once you are at the mailbox, it's so much easier to keep going.
Imogen Roy: Yeah, I can't remember which comedian it is now. It might be Larry Page. It could be someone else. Ah! Jerry Seinfeld.
Seth Godin: I've heard of him yeah.
Imogen Roy: He said: don't break the chain. The year-at-a-glance calendar, I bought one because of him and so every day that I work out, meditate and I publish something online, I have to cross a box. And then I see the X's adding up row by row and you do not want to break the streak, right?
Seth Godin: Exactly and that's why it may make sense because you and I are talking just before New Year's but it may make sense to pick trivially easy, almost stupid goals to get you started because a streak of streaks is a good thing to have, right? So, if you say: for the next 30 days I'm going to make my bed every day because I want to be the kind of person who makes the bed every day, At the end of a month, you've accomplished a goal. And now it's a little easier to make your goal something like: I'm going to learn to juggle and then it's a little easier to make your goal something like: I'm going to get on a TV show, blah-blah-blah but don't start with "I'm going to have a 100,000 Instagram followers" because you're not.
Imogen Roy: Yes, yes! I think that's such a powerful point that actually for most of us, doing *anything* new consistently - that already is step one. Because in that process of the 30 days, you prove to yourself that you are consistent person, That you can be trusted to stick to stuff, and then everything else gets easier. - Yeah that's a really good point. Okay, how should we organize this, Seth?
Seth Godin: We just did!
I’m Imogen, and as a Strategy Coach, I help entrepreneurial people to be more prolific, productive and present in their life and business.
If you know that it’s time to work in as well as on your business, book a free call with me to talk about coaching.
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